1.2: "Just People" with Sue Patterson of Unschooling Mom2Mom

It's about individualizing, and that means individualizing with the parents, too.

Yeah.

You know, like, I often talk to my coaching group about. It's not like I'm on one side of the river and I'm yelling, come on over. It's really great over here. And they've got to get all the way across the river, but there's little islands along the way, and they might stop at an island and stay there. And they're like, that's fine, sue, but I'm on the math island. I like it here.

On today's episode, I get a little surprise. I thought I'd talk to sue about going from a typical suburban mom to a politically outspoken advocate. Instead, she shakes up my assumptions about what a typical suburban mom can do and be. I knew she had shaken up the culture of unschooling support spaces 10 years ago when she created Unschooling mom to mom, her coaching and membership group. What I didn't know is that she's been shaking things up since she was a kid. We talk about immersing yourself in the places you live, living in the present, listening, making enemies, and life is an experiment. I hope you enjoy Sue's joyful approach to putting yourself out there and seeing what happens.

Hi, this is Caitlin, and I'm here with the Untangling Ourselves podcast with Sue Patterson. Hi, Sue.

Hi, Caitlin. Thanks for having me.

Sue is an unschooling coach. She's been an unschooling mom for years. She's so helpful to people. What I really like about sue is that she brings the fun into unschooling. I love how when parents are struggling and they have questions and fears, she reminds them of connection and playing with their kids. For example, her strewing calendar, which has all these ideas of things you can do to connect with your kids. I also love how she approaches people with compassion and generosity and enthusiasm. And when you talk to sue, at least in my experience, you don't feel like you're doing something wrong. So I'm really glad to have you here, Sue. I'm glad to talk to you.

I'm glad that's your experience. I don't want people to feel they're doing anything wrong. They're just finding their way, right?

Yeah, they're just finding their way. And it's such a huge mindset shift, but you approach it with just like, hey, you can bake some cookies. You can do this. It's not a big scary thing. I always love that.

Oh, good.

Yeah. So do you want to Share your definition of unschooling, what we're talking about here, when we're talking about unschooling.

Yeah. I think that it sometimes depends on who you're talking to. So if you're talking to somebody that's brand new, you know you want to. Because I run into people that are like, I just heard of the word today.

Yeah.

Like, okay. And so you want to relate it to what they know. And what they know is school. And so schooling, in its simplest thing, is not duplicating school.

Yeah.

It's finding the learning in everyday life and realizing that that's enough. When it's not enough, it will present itself and then you'll have the reason to learn it. And then for people that are that, I guess there's actually several definitions because, like, yeah, when you've maybe been homeschooling, you've heard of unschooling, and it sounds like they're feral or they're swinging from the rafters or something like that. And there's a little negative side eye kind of going on there. And really, I mean, not that I'm anti feral or anti rafter swinging, but I do think that it's much more than that. And that is often because homeschooling is duplicating school at home. It is often bringing things from school into your home that you're just doing. You're still on that conveyor belt. And so unschooling is getting off that conveyor belt and it's prioritizing the interests of the child. And so when you start there, you can ripple out from it as opposed to prioritizing a curriculum or a scope and sequence or something. And so when you start with their interests, you're going to have better engagement, you're going to be able to dive deeper, and they're going to have a different experience with learning and with you because they're going to feel what it feels like to have their ideas valued or to have that adult that's in their life be on their team and help them find their way. And I think sometimes people think, oh, there'll be gaps or, oh, there'll be. There will be things that they won't learn. That's not really how life works. They that if you need something, then you can learn it. It's not like you can't dive into something at 25 or 55.

You can.

And so unschooling is really just learning how to live your life with your kids and understand that learning is in our hardwiring that we are curious and we want to know things. And unschooling taps into that.

Yeah.

Well, so many people think you have to be coerced to learn, and it's because they were raised like that, because they were being forced through the school system and to learn things that they weren't interested in yet or ever.

Yeah.

And so learning and coercion kind of goes together for them. And so I think that one of the things about unschooling is we can kind of unpack that and see that that part doesn't have to be here.

Yeah. One of the reasons I started doing this podcast is because I feel like when I'm talking to parents, especially in that first year, like after that first year, and they're still having those fears, it really comes down to, what about you? So if you are still afraid their kids aren't going to learn, what are you learning for fun? What do you want to do? What if you, like, let go of the, oh, I can't do that because that's too silly, or, oh, need to stay on the right track, what would you be into? And I feel like that idea of unschooling yourself, I've seen it be so powerful for so many parents. I know. And it really. It helps you trust the kids, but it also opens up, I think, just some really powerful changes in people's lives. Yeah. That's a part of what's my idea. Underlying this podcast is it's not just like, how people change their lives or just unschooling, but what do you do when you find that spark for yourself, whether it's something really fun or something you believe in?

Some people have a hard time finding it. You know, they had all those years of having it squashed out.

Right. It's a. It's intense.

Put away childish things.

Right.

And so play. I run into a lot of people, they're like, I don't play. Yeah, I know it's hard.

Oh, yeah. It's taken me years.

But, you know, I think that sometimes when we let our kids play, it gives us kind of like a hall pass. We get kind of permission to play, too. Oh, I'm doing it for the kids. And the next thing you know, I kind of like this.

Right.

And before, we weren't really allowed to like it.

Yeah. Even if it's your own life, you don't have anyone in charge of you. It's those rules still kind of stick kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm wondering, before you started unschooling, did you already feel like you had an instinct to work with your kids and. Or were you parenting more strictly?

I wasn't parenting strictly, but I was very mainstream.

Yeah.

I didn't really give it a thought.

Yeah.

I really. I wasn't one of those people that read all the parenting magazines and did all the. I mean, I read a couple, but. But in the 90s there were really only a couple.

Yeah.

And I thought I was going to go back to work. Thought I was going to use the free childcare of school. Thought they were going to be fine. It was hard initially to send them.

Ye. Yeah.

Only when we went to the first kindergarten thing, they said, well, we're going to do this and this. And they gave me like a hundred things they were going to do and he could do like 90 of them.

Yeah.

I'm like, what are you going to do with him? Because he knows that already. And they're like, we'll reinforce it. Gotcha, gotcha. And so it wasn't long before he was sending coming home with his red folder that dueling with pencils in the

back of the room because he's so bored.

Did a cartwheel across the room right now, all these things. And so I started looking around for it. I met some other people and I was at their house and their kids were doing the dishes. They had teenagers and they were shoving bubbles in each other's face. I peeked around the corner to see what they were like.

Yeah, normal.

Yes. This could maybe work.

And teenagers having fun like that. That's cool. That's right. That's a good thing.

So I picked her brain. You know, she says, oh, you know, all kinds of people are starting to homeschool now. And I'm thinking I am prob. One of those people she's worried about, but I'm not going to tell her.

One of those people, like what?

She was a religious homeschooler.

Okay.

Very.

Because you said you were very mainstream. Like you.

I was just a mainstream suburban middle class mom.

Yeah.

I was not particularly.

Really.

We were Episcopalian.

Yeah.

You know, and wasn't fundamentalist. You know, that hadn't really happened yet. Yeah, well, that's not true. That had happened. It was underneath the radar and because the Tea party was happening then. And so that was like the beginning of that and there was things like HSLDA and you know, the legal defense thing that they were really pushing for a separation in the homeschooling community between the Christian homeschoolers and the secular homeschoolers. I didn't know any of this at the time. So she was part of the Christian homeschooler camp, and so she wasn't going to want anybody that wasn't part of that. And I knew I was not going to count shepherds for math. You know, we weren't. And I really wanted freedom in learning. I wanted. I didn't want to make the world smaller. I wanted to make the world bigger.

So you already. You already knew that. You knew you wanted to make the world bigger. I knew that you wanted freedom. Yeah.

Yeah, I knew. I knew I wanted them to have. Well, I didn't know it until they were in school. In school was when I really kind of firm that up that this is, you know, like when they would send stuff home, they're like, don't ask your parents. They won't know how to do that. I'm like, it's first grade. What do you mean, don't ask your parents? What. And it was some kind of weird, you know, curriculum thing of, like, break this down and do these different moving parts and stuff. And I'm like, well, why are you doing it like that?

Yeah, they don't want the parents to give the easy answer. They want to do that breakdown. Right? Yeah.

So I was mainstream in that regard. We were military, but I was, you know, I was into people thinking for themselves and not into just being a rule follower. And so when we were packing up to move from San Antonio to Alaska, I said, this is going to be when we do this, because nobody's going to care what we do. We're far away from everybody.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so I, you know, ironically, then I got Calvert School in a box as their tagline, which is, like, ironic, but it was some non religious curriculum that felt familiar. And I thought, well, I do work. And then I was so unsure of myself, so I had to pay for the teacher thing.

Yeah.

And it wasn't long before we were like, have Michael and I having a ceremonial. We will. We're breaking the pencils. We will not write for that woman in Baltimore anymore.

Which is so awesome. I mean, I said this before, like, I love hearing you talk and seeing you help people. And part of it is like, that's such a fun ritual for your kid. And it's so emotionally healthy. You're doing it together.

You and me.

Yeah, it's you and me. And then you're doing it, like, physically with the pencils and, you know, getting that. We are done with this. I love that. It's really. It's not something I would Naturally think of.

I think I must have. As I was thinking about your questions, I, I think I must have had a more rebellious streak in me all along. I think so. You think, you think? And I thought I, you know, I just hadn't given it thought. I was like, I was just doing my own thing. And. Yeah. And so it was. I was disappointed that school wasn't going to work out. I wasn't going to be able to have learners that were happy there and that I was going to be able have lunch with my friends and.

Yeah.

And I, they were, they were robbing me. This was going to be my season for that.

Yeah.

And no, it wasn't my season for that.

No, not then.

Yeah. I think in the end it was just fine. But at the time, you know, we hold on to stories in our heads, right? Oh, yeah. In my head was, schools are crummy and they should have been better. And fine, I'll do it myself. I'll sparkle this up and, and we'll have fun. And I kept telling myself, and when it doesn't work anymore, I'll send them back because we pay taxes. They have to take them.

Right.

I don't care how far behind I've let them be. But we're going to immerse ourselves in Alaska.

Yeah.

We're going to have fun and we're stuff together. And over that three year time frame, I met other people who learn different ways.

In Alaska or just in Alaska. Yeah.

Yeah. I met unschooling families.

Yeah.

And I met. People won't know who they are, but the Hegner family, they had a magazine, Home Education magazine.

I mean, I've heard of that one. Yeah.

And they live not very far.

Oh, that's great.

So they were kind of like, like, but all your kids do is snowboard. I'll be all right. I'm like, what? And so it sounded weird, you know, And I think, because I have thought a. About the path once we got on it. That's why I'm able to help people figure this out. Because I know how weird it sounded in the beginning. I know how I thought, well, good enough for you. But not mine. I thought that I had all kinds of judgy thoughts.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, it wasn't like mean judgy or anything. It was just like, what if they want something more than to work at the video store?

Right. You know, I need to teach them division now so they can work with someone else.

And then it wasn't long before they would say things like, well, Fine. But they could learn division later because we've got this cool ice fishing thing happening. Don't you want them to do that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you were kind of. Those years you were kind of ready to jump in on the fun stuff but not fully commit to. I wasn't really letting go.

Well, they weren't into it. They didn't want to do it. And so. But I was. I think what always, I was always afraid of was that what if something happens to me and they have to because if they go to my brother in law he's going to put them in school.

Yeah.

And. And they won't be ready. And so I was. That always kind of like worried me in the back. And I think that now I can tell people from having that worry to living through it. And then even having a kid that went to high school for a year and a half and she didn't know her times tables and she didn't learn to read till she was 10 and she would not consider herself an academic type and she did just fine.

Yeah.

So I think that when we worry that they're not going to school teaches the stuff and tests them on Friday and they will or they don't and whatever.

Yeah.

I mean it. You don't have to worry that someday the bottom could fall out and something could happen to you and your kid has to go to school. School. They'll adapt and they will have had a great childhood up to that point. Right.

Because the ice fishing is so valuable.

It is.

That's.

And just, just the learning how to immerse yourself where you live is what's valuable because then that's transferable. That's wherever you are as an adult. You know, that's part of the problem of kids that went to school is that they've never self directed. They don't even know what their preferences are. I can remember feeling that when I don't know what my preferences are.

Oh yeah.

Nobody ever let me have preference preferences.

Right. So was there a moment when you kind of were like this is working. I'm feeling good about this because it sounds like even that time in Alaska you were kind of.

I was very hesitant in Alaska.

Yeah.

After Alaska we moved to California and there was a big unschooling community there.

Yeah.

And so I felt very comfortable. I felt like there's a lot of cool things happening. We're tapping into them, we're having a good time. They're learning along the way. And I'd read books like I'd read Mary Griffith's book. I had read John Taylor Gatto's books. I had read all the books about letting kids learn.

Yeah.

And how they will learn. And I. I think I just made kind of a shift to living in the present moment. And that was really the critical thing that when. Right. Today's the day we need to explore this or do that or go here, see these people or something. And I didn't really have a. That feeling of, oh, but we don't know. Division. I mean, every now. And that's. My kids would say, that's not true, Mom. Because every. And I would like, what do you mean? You don't know how much percentages are. And then I'd pull out a Ketu workbook and toss it their way. And then their eyes and Mom's having a moment. And then we would stop and. Because life was always more interesting.

Yeah.

Than the workbook.

Life is.

Because they did learn it. And they did learn it. We did learn really fast ways. You know, 10% and double it. And now we know what to tip them.

Yeah.

You know, easy things like that did not take a key to workbook or Matthew C. Or any of those.

Yeah. That's one big thing. For me. It's like the kids. Time has value. Their lives have value. It's not just nothing that you insert a bunch of homework into, you know.

Right.

Yeah.

Right. But I think really, for me, a lot of it had to do with living in the present moment. You know, I had read a lot about that and I. It became really clear that school was all about that, someday you'll need this. Someday. The future. Someday. And I'm like, and when it comes, we'll learn it. And in the meantime, here's how we want to spend our days.

Yeah.

And. And I think that became kind of like, universally across how I deal with life. You know, Know, let's just stay with the present moment. And in hindsight, I look back at my kids. That's what they do. They make mistakes. And they're not terrified to make mistakes.

Yeah.

That a lot of times kids that have been in school, that's. They're just. Because it's. You know, I know from my own school experience that it can be humiliating if you say something wrong or do something wrong. But our guys don't have that. That has not affected how they look at data. They just keep. I don't know. Let's see. Let's give it a try, and we'll see what happens. If it doesn't work, we'll pivot. And that is kind of how they

approach most things, which is so valuable as an adult.

That's a better way.

Yeah.

That's a better way.

Yeah. Dropping the shame and everything from. Yeah. And you were before all this, you were a psychiatric nurse? Is that. Yeah, I was.

Yeah.

So were you doing that for a long time? You obviously, like, trained in that.

About 10 years. Yeah.

Wow. Wow. Do you feel like.

I worked as an LVN for a little while and then I, I went to college and it was kind of not a great experience, but I was just doing it. And. And in the last semester, I'm like, I'm not putting up with this. This is too much. And I left. And so. So I guess I have been a little argumentative from the get go. I don't know who I'm talking to that I'm thinking, oh, and so I left. And then I got my license because I could just pass the test because I'd taken enough. And. And so then I. So then my frontal lobe continued to develop.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I went back and finished and got my, my RN and my bachelor's degree and. And then went back into psychiatric nursing. I'd done it a little bit when I first left nursing school.

Yeah.

And because I did recreational therapy in a psychiatric facility, I just really liked talking to people and thinking about how they think and helping people figure out where they want to go and what they want to do.

And what I'm hearing when you talk about that is this non judgmentalness, you know, I mean, you're in a psychiatric facility, but you're just like, oh, I just like talking to people and helping them. That's right.

I don't really feel. That's really interesting because I don't feel judgy. Yeah. I often feel like, oh, you may not always think that. Oh, I remember I used to think that.

Yeah.

Or, well, that works today. But I don't know. I think those kinds of thoughts, not so much if you're an idiot. I don't ever think that. I always think of people at different places on the path.

Right.

I remember thinking that. Yeah. Not true.

Yeah. Well, again, it's the dropping. Well, maybe you didn't have to drop it, but some of us has to drop it. The shaming, you know, I mean, the difference between you're an idiot and oh, I used to think that is shame is like what you think has relevance to your value as a person. And if you're not putting that on people, I mean, I think it's really Powerful.

Yeah.

To be able to dialogue and support people without that shame, whether it's kids or grown ups.

Well, because everybody's. You know, one of the things about unschooling that probably should go into that, the definition today. Yeah. Is it's about individualizing. And that means individualizing with the parents, too, because the parents. You have your own baggage, you have your own pile of knowledge or lack of knowledge or fears or trauma or all kinds of things. Everybody can't do it exactly like anybody else. And that's such a important thing to know.

Yeah.

We're all at just different places. And some of it, you know, like, I often talk to my coaching group about. It's not like I'm on one side of the river and I'm yelling, come on over. It's really great over here. I've got to get all the way across the river, but there's little islands along the way, and they might stop at an island and stay there. And they're like, that's fine, sue, but I'm on the math island. I like it here. And. And so then they stay there. And that's fine.

Yeah.

Because it's just about learning to live comfortably in your own skin.

Yeah.

You know, if you're. If you don't have the bandwidth, then you don't have the bandwidth. That's. A lot of times people say, well, everybody can't unschool. Like. Well, every kid could. It's just. Parent might not, but every kid. What kid doesn't want freedom? What kid doesn't want to have their ideas valued by the adults that love them?

Yeah.

Might have baggage or an environment or a situation that they cannot manage.

Yeah. And that's.

I don't want anybody to feel like, okay, fine, get out of here. Because you can't do it the way I did it. No, no, no, no. That's not it at all.

Yeah. And that's. Yeah. And it's not bad.

No.

If you can't do it, that's, you know, do what's right for your family.

Well, then I always have my little thought of yet. Right.

You're always holding out hope for people. They're going to Jo.

You might later.

Yeah. So that kind of gets to my other question, which was I started kind of unschooling in 2013, but with like a baby, Right? Yeah. But online I was also looking for support. And my first. I had just got out of grad school and my first online group, I was like, this is horrible. This is just like grad school. You either you toe the line, you repeat what the person in charge is, the unschooling guru says, or you just get dumpster fire piled on by everybody. You know? And I quit after a week because I was like, I just left this because I was in graduate school. It was all about kissing up to the professor and flattering their ideas. And I was like, I'm out. And then, like, right then there was this unschooling mom to mom website. And I was like, this, this is great because I'm just. It's so positive. You know, when people would ask questions back in the day when you had just more Facebook questions kind of thing,

it was wild, wild west there for a little while. It you're like, hey, I missed today. There are 80 questions in the group. Some of them are going way off the rails.

Like the peak of mom Facebook. Let's see what happens next. I don't know. I was so happy to find you. And also, I mean, I think we just kind of covered it, but also just so impressed at your ability to keep that positivity and not be shaming people, you know, to give advice without loading it up with.

Right.

You should do things this way.

Yeah.

Yeah. Do you want to talk about what made you start unschooling mom to mom and what it is, what it's become?

What made me start it was that dumpster fire that you were experiencing. You were not the only one. And I didn't. Well, I might have a little bit, but I didn't. At that stage of the game, I didn't care.

Right.

But I was very aware of people that were being turned away from the idea of unschooling because they had nowhere to go.

Yeah.

You know, it's interesting because I've talked to a lot of people from that time period, and a lot of people have had that exact same experience of it feeling like a pile on thing. And one of the things that happened in that particular group that we're probably talking about is they really wanted higher level discussions. They really didn't want new people. They wanted to explore intellectually about unschooling and how kids learn and take that apart.

Which is. Is fine. That's a whole different.

It's fine. As long as there's somewhere somebody tried to do like an unschooling basics.

Yeah.

Thing. But even that would have this tinge of judgy, you know, this tinge of you're dumb kind of thing, which is

so ironic because that's not what we're doing for kids.

Wow.

Yeah.

So what I did was my friend Pam Srushian and I gathered a couple of people and said, what if we made a kinder, gentler, unschooling spot?

Yeah.

You guys can go have your deep conversations with each other.

Right.

But other people can come. They're like, fine, take those people. You know, you. They're. They're hard. They. They really did have judgment. I remember thinking, too. I remember thinking, what about people like me? What about suburban moms who never gave it a thought before now? You know, if I had had my initial experience in there, I would have thought y' all are just like the mean girls club. You know, I didn't. I didn't leave the PTA at school to join the PTA at unschool.

Yeah.

And so, you know, with about six or seven moderators, we opened this group in about 2014, you know, and, you know, and a lot of them had come from that other group, and so they still kind of had a tendency.

Yeah.

To have, like, a little backhandedness in their stuff.

It's hard to shift a culture like that.

It is. It is.

Right.

And I think that that became my thought, is that I want to help people see how they could live in this kind of an environment with their children. I don't want them to think it's black and white. You know, it's.

I mean, that was the whole. That would set the tone those whole years.

Yeah.

And it's interesting what you said about the intellectual stuff, because I'm already. I'll talk about intellectual stuff all the time, but I grew up with so much shame and hierarchy that I really. If I stay.

That's what I mean. When other people would try to do it because they would have this lower level approach. So you have these lofty ideas, but if somebody says the word teaching, then somebody that doesn't really grasp it, they can jab you for that, Right? Oh, they said it. I'll jab for that.

Well, and I just. I really needed the modeling of being kind and being non judgmental. Like, I could theorize about kids learning and believe in unschooling abstractly, but like the principle of coming at something surprising or something that felt wrong to me without judgment.

Now, how do you. How do you unpack that if you don't have a safe place to unpack it?

Right. And I knew if I stayed in a group like that, I was just gonna get worse. You.

Well, and. And, you know, we are kind of the. The sum total of the people we hang out with.

Right.

And when we hang out with people that jab or that are mean or judgy or critical or then we become more like that.

Yeah.

Or we at least become more tolerant of it.

Yeah, for sure.

That was what I wanted to not have. I want. I. You know, and I can remember them saying, well, that's not going to last, that group over there. And I'm like, that's all I need to hear. And you know, so. So along the way we lost moderators. They didn't want to, you know, I would say, you know, you can't say it like that. When you say it like this is. They're like, it turns out several of them were very anti suburban mom. And I'm like, well, sorry, they're my people. Yeah. Those non thinking, non crunchy chicken nugget eating. Those are my people. You. And they didn't like that. And so there.

So you really had to set some boundaries in the background to make this happen a lot. Yeah.

And then people. Yeah. And it was at the beginning of my coaching too. I hadn't really even started it yet. This is kind of. I had two websites. I had the unschooling mom to mom website and had a Sue Patterson.com coaching website.

Okay.

It was because there was, this was my own unpacking I had to end up doing. There was a lot that I was. Was setting this up to create a coaching funnel. You know, I'm like, okay, then I'll keep it. We'll do it separate. But how do you separate it really? And in the end I was, you know, the last man standing. So I'm like emerging my stuff. Take it up because you're the one

who's here keeping it going.

You know, I keep the lights on so I pay the. Who's paying for it? You know, I put a tip jar out and I got like $7 a year. I'm like, who's paying for it?

Yeah, we have that in. Yeah, yeah.

It's a real thing. And so I think that also just from an interesting thing to unpack is women are expected to share their knowledge for free.

Absolutely.

As we go down and watch the clothes together at the river, we share what we know.

Right.

Nobody says compensate me, please. Right. No, Nobody says who's going to pay for that website? Who's going to pay for that email server? You know, my convert kit that sends out my emails is over a thousand dollars a year. And who's going to pay for that?

And Right. Let alone your time.

Let alone my time. And so Then that's the. That's the part that I thought was also really interesting. Simultaneously. That. And I think that kind of made me not mad, is that I thought. Thought, wow. As women, we are told not to charge for our expertise unless we have a degree tacked on it or something.

Even then.

And even then, we should be doing a whole lot of volunteering.

Oh, yeah.

And so that was a. Interesting phase to get comfortable with. I know what I'm talking about.

About.

I knew what I was talking about, but I didn't. I mean, there were, like, in. This is. I don't know if you want this for your. For your podcast.

I can edit if you want to.

You can. There were. There were Facebook groups to badmouth.

I didn't know that. Oh, yeah.

There were. There were Facebook groups that were about how I was gonna just take advantage of everyone. It has to do with power. It has. Has to do with whose voice is in charge.

Yeah.

Voice says, I don't care what you say.

Yeah.

And people that say, I don't care what you say become targets.

Yeah. Well. And I feel strongly that, you know, the boundaries that you're setting in the background, you can't change a culture unless you do that. Unless you set those boundaries. But when you do that, you make enemies.

Oh, yeah.

So we've had that experience in the unschooling. Every family group, for sure, with.

Right, right.

Every new boundary or every principle or value that you decide like, no, I'm really gonna stick with this one. People probably make some enemies and you become the villain. Yeah. But you can't change a culture. You can't push for change unless you do that.

Right.

I mean, that's my.

Otherwise you maintain status quo. And what's the difference if you're going to be the status quo from school or the status quo from how the unschooling community is.

Yeah.

And so when we made unschooling mom to mom, it was to offer a place for people that were clueless about this idea that they had just come from school or they had just always homeschooled and heard terrible things about unschoolers. It's also. It was the beginning of really active keyboard warrior kind of stuff. And so people were, like, proving their fealty.

Yeah, absolutely.

I'm a real unschooler, and you're not real.

Yeah.

And so if I said things about subject, then I was not a real unschooler. If I said things about teaching, I was not a real unschooler. If I said things Like, I had a really hard time for a long time about chores because we lived on a ranch. And I said, you know, if I leave it up to them, I will have dead cattle in the field. I will have chickens that are, like, pecking at the window to come in. You know, we're gonna have dead animals. We have to. And so it took a while and even that. And so what were we, six, eight years? And. No, not that many. But six years into it then, I was still letting things go, you know, learning how to release stuff that I held onto, that I had a story in my head of, well, we can't do chores like that. But what we could do, what we ended up doing was thinking of the principles under it and the principal were, how do we help with transitions? Because nobody wants to say, get off your game and go feed the cattle, put the water out for the horses. Go do this other thing. Pick up the chicken poop. You know. So where do transitions happen? And for us, what happened was we had this little drive up our hill to where we lived. And so as we're driving up, we're talking about who's going to do what. And we look at it kind of as a team approach before we get settled in and do something else. House, how can we get the things done that we need to get done? So they were real things. They weren't, like, arbitrary, when will you make your bed? You know, it was, who's going to bring the hose down to the water? Yeah, I'm going to start dinner. And if I start dinner, you know, you're going to do this, and I'm going to do that. And. And so we started approaching more. When I could do that for chores, then I could do it for anything. Yeah, I learned that this team approach, they didn't always say, yeah, I can't wait, Mom. But it. This is how we're gonna do. We're gonna do. Now, what would happen in the unschooling community sometimes is you would say, don't do chore. Don't make them do chores.

Right.

And in some cases, I get that, but there's such nuance with it.

Yeah, absolutely.

What chores are needed? Well, we gotta have clean silverware. Who's gonna, you know, who's gonna wash it? Right. And I do know of a lot of people that the moms did it. The moms just did all the chores, and their teenagers did end up helping later down the road. So, I mean, it did work like that.

Well, it's like you said about the islands it depends on your situation. I mean, if you are able to do it, maybe do it.

Yeah. Because you've got to dismantle that. I don't live just as your maid here in the house. You know that. Okay, unpack. If that's the thought that comes to mind. And you're listening to this podcast, it's time to unpack the.

That.

Nobody said you were right. How do you feel about helping people have a life they. That you've chosen for them? You've chosen the sunscreen life.

Or a ranch.

Or a ranch. You've chosen it. And how are you going to team? How can you teamify it that if you can make it more of a team, then nobody feels taken advantage of, you know? And maybe on the week that Katie has tech week at the theater, and she's there every day, everybody does her chores.

Yeah.

Because she's not home.

Yeah.

We don't wait, because that's your chore. It's on the list. It's got your name by it. You know, we don't have that. So. And other thing to remember is that sometimes it's phases. Sometimes you're like, well, this kid could do this if he, you know. But would it be better to just do it? Maybe. Maybe sometimes it is better than having, like, yet a power struggle that makes a deeper rut and a deeper rut and a deeper rut. And if it's going to interfere in. In the trust relationship and evaluate whether you really want to do that or not, I'm gonna try. And then on the days I can't, then I say, hey, I really can't do that. And they're like, okay, because they get it, you know, but there's still little things you can do. I'm stuck on this chores thing. Evidently, there's little things, like as they're walking through the living room, you hand them your plate and you say, hey, could you take this to the. The kitchen sink from. Yeah, it's already on their trajectory.

Yeah.

They didn't have to go out of their way. And you kind of create this environment of helping each other that we help each other.

And you also make them aware, because I know some kids, like, they're not going to notice the plate sitting over

there or the wrappers on the couch or the Coke can that's spilled over and they don't notice any of it.

Yeah, yeah. I'll just. I'll combine like, the picking up the wrappers with the, like, we're chatting. So I'm in your room and we're connecting. We're chatting. And also, by the way, there's a pile of trash right here. I'm gonna throw that out.

You come in there with one of your extra little plastic bags from the store, and you just start taking stuff. Yeah.

And if you're stuck in this judgmentalism, I feel like it's so unhelpful, because if you're afraid, well, if I. If I even think about making them do a chore, then I'm not a real unschooler, or I'm gonna get judge. It really traps you. You can't think creatively. Like you said about the transitions are your needs or their needs, and how to piece it all together is always changing. It's always really complicated for every family.

And I think it's really important to not care about whether you're a real unschooler or not. It doesn't matter. Are you connecting with your kids? Are you helping them live a full, rich life? Are you seeing the world? Are you dismantling the fears that you have in your head that. That bleed over into your relationship?

Yeah.

Do all of those things and forget the label. Label. The label is. It's not just unnecessary. It's. It can be confining. But it's about a partnership. I think that if we could just replace child led with partnership. When sometimes you lead, sometimes I lead, sometimes you're like, I think we should do this. Okay. What part of it can you say, ask to, you know, and to keep moving in that direction, but don't say, what do you want to learn today? No. You know, and I think a lot of people start with that, Right?

Yeah.

And so when they do, and that's like the whole concept of being kinder. As you let people talk, they tell you where they are as they're crossing the river. Are they still on the other side? Are they at an island? You know, and so then, you know, how you want to help them doesn't mean you want to help them become little clones of me. It means, how can I help you release some things that keep you from embracing a life that could be way more pleasant.

Right. Right. You can. You can hear some of those traps in there when you listening.

Right.

Yeah.

Without jabbing them.

Right.

Imagine sometimes you don't even have to say anything.

Yeah.

You know, because you're not about proving to everyone how smart you are.

Yeah.

Which is kind of like what was going on back then.

Right. Yeah. Okay. So kind of transitioning. You have your sub stack, your brand

with my like, four. Four entries on substack. Hey, I'm.

I'm a fan. I'm on there. I'm a fan. And I was really excited when I started seeing you be like, you know what? Screw it. I'm gonna express my politics. This is my page. You started doing that, you know, personally, and then with the writing and the substack. And I'm wondering how you got there, because you always say, like, oh, I'm just your regular suburb mom.

I am.

And it always sounded like I'm. I'm just gonna stay out of that kind of politics and stuff. So what. What made you take that jump or brought you.

That's interesting, because, see, I think that must be your perspective that the regular suburban mom isn't political.

Oh, yeah.

I was a suburban mom that was doing community service all along.

Yeah.

My mom was a social worker. My dad was really kind and not judgy, really. Or at least he it to himself. And together they did a lot of community service work. And they were very big into saying, you know, you treat the person that takes out your trash the same as the person that owns the company.

Oh, that's. That's.

And so I was raised with that. And so when I would see people not act like that, then I was like, oh, that's what they were talking about.

So that was your baseline?

That was my baseline. So my baseline. So. So it's always interesting, right? Me, I'm thinking I'm just a typical suburban, you know, only you're thinking that means 1950s June cleaver kind of thing,

or just kind of. I mean, what I grew up with. And, you know, everybody's got a different take, but what I grew up with, with typical suburban mom was very like, oh, I don't want to talk about that.

Just get along. Don't talk about religion or politics or. What are the three things? There's three things they always say, Right. But I don't know. My family always talked about it. Yeah.

So that was never not there for you.

You know, I was the. I don't know if you want to say this on your pod. I was the kid that argued pro abortion in a Catholic high school, you know, so.

Wow.

And with the. With the nun being the teacher,

how would that go for you?

It went fine. Well, I mean, I was just not gonna. I was not gonna. I couldn't even really necessarily do it very well, but there was just no way I was gonna let those guys on the other side of the argument make decisions about me. And so I Could feel the redness coming up my neck. Has always happened for like decades. But I was. Shaky voice or not. Go on, go on, keep talking. It's not your. It's not your body.

That's how sex. So you were pretty brave all the way back then.

Maybe.

Yeah.

I think, I think I was. I think I was brave. I think that I was gonna say, I don't know if I was brave, but I was brave in that I. I didn't have really strong people pleasing traits. I didn't have to overcome that. I think a lot of. To overcome that.

Yes.

I think I early on didn't. Please. I think early on the teacher was writing, saying, she won't stop talking or she's. She's being disruptive and she's smart. But gosh. And so, you know, and I remembered thinking, you are so unpleasable. You know, that just became like my school experience was, you're not gonna like me, but that's okay. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I remember my mom saying, everybody doesn't have to like you. Like, well, that good thing. Because they don't.

Yeah.

And. And so I guess I, I think a lot of people. And then when they say things like, you know, suburban, you know, middle class, there's a lot of people pleasing.

Yeah, exactly.

Happens in that.

You know, that's my assumption.

And I think I didn't have that. It was always more important, even before the word authenticity became like the buzzword. It was more important to be authentic. Authentic. It was more important for my insides to match my outsides. So what you see is what you get. And, you know, people do say that sometimes they're in the membership and they're like, wow, you're exactly like we thought you'd be. I'm like, yeah,

yeah.

Because I think that holds a lot of people back, that whole people pleasing, you know. And I can remember, I mean, I guess I don't have none, but I can remember feeling, Feeling embarrassed in the beginning of unschooling, feeling like, who do you think you are? That you can step away or people are going to feel like you're judging them. Like your stuff's not good enough for my kids. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. And they do and they do.

And I didn't like it. And so that's why I really liked moving to Alaska. But even there I had people doing that. People were like, why are you doing that article's really good. I'm like, yeah, everybody always thinks that.

So when you talk about suburban mom or how you grew up with Your parents treating everybody equally. It sounds more like community building and not just living the life you're supposed to live. When you're thinking about that.

Yeah. I think that I remember they kind of made fun of me as a kid. As a little kid, I was always. They said, you will spend more time gathering people together than actually playing. You will go go house to house to house to find all the people. You know, they would have a vacation Bible school, and I would have everybody going. So I just always been kind of a community organizer from the get go. You know, I'm 64.

Right.

And I always like to say that because I want people to know that you can keep doing things.

Yeah.

Know that you have your first 20 years and your kid and everybody. That's your kid world. Your next 20 years is kind of parenting. In that 20 to 40s range, you'll have two more ranges. And so you've got.

Good for me to hear. Yeah, yeah.

So in that 40 to 60 range, I did a lot. I, you know, marched on capitals and things like that. We did political voter registration stuff.

Yeah. Yeah.

Things like that. So, yeah. When my kids were teenagers, I had them gather up all their friends and we did envelope stuffing.

Oh, nice.

They didn't care what they were doing. They just were. Here came sue with her teenagers with this band of kids that are. That some went to school, some didn't, you know.

Oh, that's awesome. We should do that. I haven't thought about that. For the team.

Yeah. Yeah. And it made a difference. My oldest then ended up doing, like, community organizing in college where he did a voter's registration program push and became a district. Something. I don't know. I think that, you know, little things like that. Now I have a grandbaby.

Yeah.

Goes to school because my youngest is divorced and. And so school is just in the cards for him right now. And, you know, there was a whole year I was the cafeteria lady. I worked in the cafeteria at the public school as I'm starting my podcast, you know, and I'm wearing a hair net and I'm. But, you know, it was a way that I could see more and they needed volunteers.

How was that? How was that in being in the school after so many years?

Just people, you know.

Yeah.

I remember thinking, you know, gosh, it would be so cool if this whole building was turned into, like, you could come if you wanted. Absolutely.

Yeah.

But that's not anytime in the future.

No. Yeah. That's kind of my. If I had a vision for how it should be. It's not. Not that school's gone. It's that you come in and you do a project with your friends, with a mentor. When you. When you're ready to do that, you know.

Yeah. Yeah.

Have a food fight. Yeah, yeah. So you're. So you're busy with your grandson and your business right now, and how are you coping with the awful disintegration of what's going on with our politics and our government?

Yeah.

What's keeping you going with that? That.

Well, it's depressing, but I guess, you know, it's one of those things that how you've lived your life up to this point is going to be what helps you when you have difficult times. And so what can you do to help? What can you really do to help? And how can your voice help those that don't have a voice? How can I use my privilege? I have a lot of privilege. And so how can I go ahead and say stuff that other people are like? I wish you would just be quiet. I know you do. That's all I say. I hear you. You know, I. Mass exodus of Instagram. Okay. Do what you have to do. You know, so it's this. It's the same as I've always been. It's always, okay, do what you have to do, because I'm gonna do what I. I have to do. What I have to do is hold the microphone for people from time to time. You know, I don't need to come in and save anybody. I just need to hold the door.

Yeah.

Prop it open so other people can get in, pull up another chair at the table, you know, whatever needs to happen. And. And so how I'm coping with it is I'm trying to live in the present right now. Here's where we are. I can do and gloom down the road. I mean, we could all end up the way. Go the way of Iran. You know, it was a perfectly modernized country that then became religiously dominated. It could happen. We're not so exceptional that it couldn't happen to us.

Right.

Could happen. It hasn't happened yet.

Yeah.

So to not get too swept up in that part to do what you can to help educate people. So in my membership, I put a. Of Lot, lot of stuff in there about help your kids understand history. Help your kids understand real history.

Oh, no. Subjects.

Oh, I know, I know. But. But it's the only way to not have revisionist history win.

Right.

You know, we have to know. We have to. Nazi can't just be a word. It has to be what? How did they end up like that? I can remember thinking with, my mom was born in 1930, and my dad was born in 1920, and he fought in World War II. And I remember. Remember thinking about my mom. What did you do during all of that? You know, I'm reading about Anne Frank and thinking, why didn't you just run over there and help her?

Right, Absolutely. Yeah.

So I think that. What are you doing? How are you spending your money? Are you supporting? Yeah, I think I just try to. To show that a suburban mom can be thinking, too.

Yeah. Well, you taught me a little bit about that. Right.

And a suburban mom can have ideas, too. It's not bad. It has to do with you as a person or your family or your kids. It just is one of those things that you live in this world, you have a say. I mean, for now.

Yeah.

So you better voice it while you have.

Right.

And you better explain the importance of it to your children so that they don't just shrug and say, what is she all upset about?

Yeah.

Because if you've never talked about it, that's what they'll say. Why she said so upset. Why she lost her voting rights. So dad votes for us.

Oh, gosh.

I mean, people. I live in Texas. I know what I hear.

Yeah, but you're right. You can. If you don't speak up about it, they could have that thought. It's not right.

Right. And so that's why it's important to do that. And, you know, my substack is really just a place for me to kind of vent and to play with words. I had a hard time thinking about it at as I wanted to be able to say exactly what I feel, and I didn't want that to stop somebody who doesn't exactly feel the same way.

Yeah. So you kind of separate it.

One of the things when you're starting to unschool is that you're always looking for reasons not to. And so if somebody says something that is a little too whatever for you, then okay, then I'm not doing that. Yeah, I'll go get the whatever curriculum. And I don't want that to be your reason. And so I try really hard, even within my membership, to not speak a lot about politics. I'm sure they know how I feel because I am vocal in lots of places. But when we're trying to find the common ground, then that's where we have to find it. Now, most of the time, what I found is that. That people that are pro Trump, pro conservative, Politics. They leave me.

Yeah.

I don't have to kick them out. You know, they. They do that on their own. You know, at the election, I had a lot of people leave because it was really hard to imagine that this was the path we were going to be on. And it was interesting because that's when I started to see that so many people have that kind of suburban idea the way you want forward to thinking.

Right.

That they're just not thinking about it. They just don't go there. And it's so very clear to me that that's just. You get to sit in a place of privilege, that it doesn't bother you yet.

Yeah. Yeah.

I guess I just. My way is always to just muddy it up a little, you know, that you think I'm this, but I'm really not. I'm not, you know, or you think like the people that I. But there I am with the hair net and doing the cafeteria worker. They have no idea. I have a pot podcast talking about how don't send. You don't send your kids to school. They were not my people to talk to about it. Now they said, my kid is so miserable. I just said, here, you have some options. Yeah, I would have said that, but. But they weren't saying that. And so, you know, know who you're talking to.

Yeah. And connect with people before you start.

I think connecting with people. Yeah. That you can be a kind of a. A lighthouse. You know, you can kind of roam around and you don't have to ne. Scream it in their face, but they can know how you stand with stuff.

Yeah.

But I do think that people have to stay a little bit more vocal as far as politics goes, because it is too easy for a really a minority of people to have a bigger voice, partly because they have more money. The billionaires are paying the people to have that bigger voice, and there are not more of them than us, but they are better funded.

Yeah.

So all we have is a voice, you know, that you have to use it. Use it before you lose it.

And if you want to change that, I mean, I'm just thinking about you starting unschooling mom to mom and trying to change a culture. Right. If you want to change the culture right now, you have to be willing to be brave and get out there

and let them go ahead and start a Facebook group against you. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Whatever. Yeah. But you know what? That really had even that weirdness. It has to do with feeling, belonging. You know, you want to feel you belong sometimes the way you feel belonging is by ostracizing somebody else. That's part of mean girl mentality that you learned in school. And it's important to not do that. That it's important to choose your belonging based upon. Who do you want to be around, who do you want, what do you aspire to? What. What are people that kind of complement. Not as in compliments, like you're doing so great, but complement your life.

Yeah.

How can you make your life fuller and richer? And do the people that are in your life make your life fuller and richer? And if not, then go get some new people. It doesn't mean that you have to dump the old ones, but let's water them down a little bit, bring in some others that can make it, you know, just have everybody. What is that? Rising tide raises all boats.

Yeah.

Let's just level it up a little bit.

Yeah. And I think belonging is. It's scary for some. A lot of people. It's not something that's easy or accessible and offering people that is really powerful. Yeah. So do you have. We kind of went through five different principles that guide you, but did you have something else that you wanted to add for a principle or a. A quote that helps you figure out the right next step for you? Right now, I think.

Oh, now what? See, I've already lost it. I had them this morning when we talked about it. Oh, I know what they are.

Okay.

One of them is. It's all just an experiment. Just keep experimenting, keep trying. Don't worry about getting it right. Worry about following your best guess and then pivot a little and then another best guess and then pivot a little and then keep moving in that direction as opposed to. I gotta have it all laid out. Don't worry about. Don't lay it all out. Just start walking. And so that's one of them. And then the other. I don't have it right. I used to have a sign that said sue's Good Enough Club. And. And I think that join, mentally join your Sue's Good Enough club. We don't have to be perfect at this. We just have to have a few principles. Like, I'm going to value the connection with my kids. I'm going to advocate for them wherever I can. I'm going to. To take care of myself, not just because I'm human, but because it helps me be a better parent if I take care of myself. So when we do that and we have those as foundational, then we can just keep moving in that direction and do good enough and then going.

Yeah. And those principles aren't something to judge yourself against. They're. They're guiding. They're directional.

Right. They help you. Like, if you think is what I'm about to say gonna strengthen. Strengthen or hurt my connection with my kid, ask that, you know, ask where can I say yes, Mom, I want to go to New York City and blah, blah. Can we do it today? No. Can we. Let's think about. Let's go look up how much it would cost to go or where could we stay? Oh, I have a cousin there. And you just start brainstorming ways. What parts can you say yes to instead of. Of just shutting them down.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Basic little principles like that, asking yourself, why does this matter? Guess I have a lot of little ideas.

Yeah, Those are good ones. Well, thank you so much. This was really fun. I. I'm really glad I got to meet you more and ask you all these questions.

I'm a little rambly. I've been.

I've been a fan for a long time.

I'm so glad that we connected and that. And that our paths crossed and that it has been helpful for you.

Yeah. Yeah. Even when I had that little two year old, it was. Made a big difference. Yeah.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks for inviting me. It was fun shouting.

Yeah, it was really fun. Thank you, Sue. I appreciate you taking the time and everything.

Sure. Thanks a lot.

Okay.